tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post3813131351775718949..comments2024-01-23T17:14:04.067-05:00Comments on Jaltcoh: Does music describe things?John Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-26200328101217002922009-05-13T09:56:00.000-04:002009-05-13T09:56:00.000-04:00Oh, I forgot to point out:
Language doesn't dire...Oh, I forgot to point out: <br /><br /><I>Language doesn't directly mean things through its sounds; you need to first learn the arbitrary meanings the words correspond to.<br /><br />Creek, gurgle, honk, katydid, hiccup, zoom, bang, beep, splash...<br /><br /></I>These aren't counterexamples. Yes, there's a tiny portion of words whose sounds have <I>some</I> resemblance to their meaning, but you still need to learn that "hiccup" means hiccup. It's a different process than listening to the first prelude in Bach's Well-Tempered Keyboard and hearing it as tranquil (which isn't to deny that the latter process requires some training). Also, the very fact that onomotpoeias stand out from most words shows that most words' sounds have nothing to do with their meanings.John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-16907452644670058692009-05-11T10:15:00.000-04:002009-05-11T10:15:00.000-04:00AES: Great citation for this point! I recently got...AES: Great citation for this point! I recently got a set of DVDs called The Unanswered Question as a gift -- several hours of Leonard Bernstein lectures. I haven't watched all of them yet, but I'm almost sure he addresses programmatic music, so I'll be on notice for this point.John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-30525192168714984222009-05-11T10:08:00.000-04:002009-05-11T10:08:00.000-04:00Leonard Bernstein makes the same point in the firs...Leonard Bernstein makes the same point in the first of his recorded concerts for kids. He moves from the William Tell Overture, which kids in the fifties would recognize immediately from the Lone Ranger and seems to have a "story" to other pieces. Classical music is often taught as if it "tells a story." He wants to tune their ears differently, since that expectation inhibits what they'd intuitively experience. <br /><br />If you can get your hands on it, you might find it interesting. At the very least, you'll see a great teacher at work. It's also quite cool to see all the boys and girls in their best dresses and bow ties coming out to the concert.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12718800262717962244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-64153388258035703142009-05-08T12:53:00.000-04:002009-05-08T12:53:00.000-04:00All valid points ... and your observation about Ba...All valid points ... and your observation about Bach/Debussy could be the basis for a whole other blog post about music's connection to religion. On one hand, a lot of music is clearly supposed to express profoundly religious feelings. On the other hand, as someone who's not religious, I feel like I can experience the some profundity in listening to a mass, but without the actual beliefs accompanying it. You could even argue I'm more directly experiencing the music itself than religious people are...John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-2415885808404383372009-05-08T11:42:00.000-04:002009-05-08T11:42:00.000-04:00Music (of any sort) generally expresses its "meani...<I>Music (of any sort) generally expresses its "meaning" directly through its combination of sounds: melodies, rhythms, etc. <br /><br /></I>As Cognitive Daily shows, the meaning is only emotional, the same sort of thing you'd get from spoken words.<br /><br />I don't know about you, but I like watching foreign language films with subtitles, not dubbing, because I want to hear the emotions the actors had in their voices.<br /><br /><I>Language doesn't directly mean things through its sounds; you need to first learn the arbitrary meanings the words correspond to.<br /><br /></I>Creek, gurgle, honk, katydid, hiccup, zoom, bang, beep, splash...<br /><br />Most people could also listen to a conversation and tell if someone is being scolded or being cared for. Most dogs could.<br /><br />Even the emotions we hear in music may not be the types of emotions other people pick up on. Bach might say Debussy is anti-religious, earlier musicians might say that about Bach. Not to say that they wouldn't pick up on the emotions intended, they'd just weight them differently and have different reactions. You could say even the emotions we get from music are in part learned.<br /><br />Early western musicians thought you could express <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cAw2stDrak&feature=related" REL="nofollow">specific meanings with music</A>. They were able to produce music that expressed things like numbers, running up and down hills, death etc. <br /><br />But how often do you run up and down hills?<br /><br />Also, <A HREF="http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=291760522&s=143441" REL="nofollow">the sound track to the book Anathem</A> has some examples of music that could be decoded by an alien to describe mathematical concepts.Jason (the commenter)https://www.blogger.com/profile/16045360562791361484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-11743675022509732502009-05-08T09:50:00.000-04:002009-05-08T09:50:00.000-04:00I think there's some truth to that analogy, but th...I think there's some truth to that analogy, but there's also a distinction between programmatic music (music that's supposed to fit a story, like a tone poem or movie soundtrack) and words in a language you don't understand. Music (of any sort) generally expresses its "meaning" directly through its combination of sounds: melodies, rhythms, etc. Programmatic music gives you those things even if you're not aware of what stories or images are supposed to go along with it. But language doesn't work like that. Language doesn't directly mean things through its sounds; you need to first learn the arbitrary meanings the words correspond to.John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-4228147121973854442009-05-08T08:28:00.000-04:002009-05-08T08:28:00.000-04:00But you need to be explicitly shown or told what t...<I>But you need to be explicitly shown or told what the music is supposed to evoke -- which means the music on its own doesn't evoke specific things.<br /><br /></I>They don't evoke the things the composer always intended, that's for sure, but everyone who listened to the music thought it meant something and wrote it down.<br /><br />It's like listening to a language you can't understand. It may be a very pretty language that makes you dream of clouds in moonlight, but once you find a translator you can enjoy it on a different level.<br /><br />I'd bet most people don't know what the music they are listening to is supposed to mean, but they still enjoy it, and that is the power of music.Jason (the commenter)https://www.blogger.com/profile/16045360562791361484noreply@blogger.com