tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post8548797293969381706..comments2024-01-23T17:14:04.067-05:00Comments on Jaltcoh: Thinking about the best songs of the first decade of the 2000sJohn Althouse Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-62525549124755807262009-12-20T17:36:42.334-05:002009-12-20T17:36:42.334-05:00p. t. fogger: I agree with your points but with so...p. t. fogger: I agree with your points but with some qualifications. True, there were a lot of 60s songs that sound embarrassing now -- but just wait 40 years and listen to how the sound of the 00's sound. Aarrgghh!<br /><br />And I think it's true that the institution of the professional songwriter was wonderful in the old days (although Ellington and other jazz composers were both songwriter and performer). But in the rock era we had Leiber/Stoller, Ellie Greenwich (who has two songs in m Top Ten), and Carole King, among others, some of whom made the transition to performer. <br /><br />I certainly think that the pressure to write their own songs, for the purpose of increasing royalties, has been harmful for the average performer who just isn't a very good songwriter. So you have album after album with two good songs and twelve mediocre ones. But on the other hand, by definition we don't remember all the forgettable songs that Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, etc. wrote. <br /><br />I think it would be better if more of the popular rock performers did covers. Too repetitious? Just look at all the pop and jazz singers who cover "I've Got a Crush on You," "Darn that Dream" etc. I think covers would be a stimulus to stylistic creativity in performance: people would have to differentiate themselves by something other than repertoire. Some of the greatest rock songwriters don't really get covered very much, when you think about it. I always think that Springsteen's song title "Cover Me" was in part a wry plea to performers. <br /><br />Nevertheless, even if there are a thousand would-be Dylans, there's one real one, and many other contemporary songwriter-performers who'e made songs that will last, I believe, as long as Gershwin's and Porter's. (As long as there's electricity, anyway.) As you said, the idea of what is a song is has expanded. Unfortunately, "Yesterday" is inherently botchable by the average pop singer in a way that "I've Got a Crush on You" isn't. I wonder if that says anything about the greatness of "Yesterday" -- I don't know. But it's a different genre.Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-40701360445500153052009-12-20T12:50:56.285-05:002009-12-20T12:50:56.285-05:00Estimable as these songs are, shall we refrain fro...<i>Estimable as these songs are, shall we refrain from pointing out that a list of the 200 best songs of the 1960s would simply blow them away?</i><br /><br />Could it also be true that the 200 worst songs of the 1960's are worse than the 200 worst songs of the 2000's?<br /><br />There were some real stinkers back then.T.K. Tortchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00553301766027577975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-17410622589722363332009-12-20T12:48:51.254-05:002009-12-20T12:48:51.254-05:00But actually, the best decade for songs is the Thi...<i>But actually, the best decade for songs is the Thirties.</i><br /><br />Bingo.<br /><br />Of course, songwriters then were writing <i>songs</i>, often never intending to perform or record them themselves. They were pop/art product the writers hoped somebody, or several somebodies, would record & make successful. Or the songs were for a stage show. <br /><br />After the 60's, the idea of what a "song" was expanded to such a degree (or deformed, if you prefer), that a group could have a hit that wasn't easily transferable to another performer: idiosyncrasies of instrumentation, timber, rhythm, vocals etc. could be difficult for any performer but the originator to reproduce convincingly. Further, it might be difficult to reduce the song to written music that accurately represented the song. If you've got the words & music to "Stardust", you've got 'em & you can sit down at the piano and play it & sing the melody. That's not always the case with today's songs.T.K. Tortchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00553301766027577975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-18812109361139774972009-12-20T12:23:17.570-05:002009-12-20T12:23:17.570-05:00Ron: No, but I love American popular song.Ron: No, but I love American popular song.Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-17113542753346062792009-12-20T09:54:25.188-05:002009-12-20T09:54:25.188-05:00You missed the obvious point -- everybody steals t...You missed the obvious point -- everybody steals their music from the internet now. So the songs that can quickly gain acceptance and are still unique/interesting/offbeat enough to spread virally are the ones that find a big audience. Most of the music you cite could be described as such.hoipolloinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-74478794843121143222009-12-19T12:48:03.029-05:002009-12-19T12:48:03.029-05:00Tying in to Jason's point, I wonder how many p...Tying in to Jason's point, I wonder how many people actively choose to engage in a kind of sonic topiary; picking and choosing from the decades as you see fit. For most of pop music history this is verbotten; what is listened to NOW implied the rejection of what went before. Look how quick musical acts "died"! The British music scene still seems that way.<br /><br />RLC, are you an Astaire/Rogers fanboy like moi?Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791314877257904422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-53950447817539522782009-12-19T12:31:20.240-05:002009-12-19T12:31:20.240-05:00Technically: ProTools, vocal pitching, lack of dy...Technically: ProTools, vocal pitching, lack of dynamic range. <br /><br />Thematically: pretentious big words, navel gazing (cf. The National, Andrew Bird)Turtle Nonecknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-87570657310865421532009-12-18T06:45:53.247-05:002009-12-18T06:45:53.247-05:00You guys seem to be talking about another trend of...You guys seem to be talking about another trend of music during the 2000's: it's easier than ever to not pay attention to current tunes. You can be listening to albums from the 20's or 70's; CDs and electronic versions don't degrade with each listen. And even if you can't hear the music before you buy it on the radio, you can always hear samples on iTunes or Amazon.Jason (the commenter)https://www.blogger.com/profile/16045360562791361484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-28639757765504149502009-12-16T11:51:23.206-05:002009-12-16T11:51:23.206-05:00I'm not sure I agree. While the Beatles were b...I'm not sure I agree. While the Beatles were by far the best group, they didn't -- in my opinion as always -- have the best individual songs. It's very hard to say what the best Beatles song is, and if it were a Paul song we'd be short-changing John (and George), and vice versa. But limiting it to approximately one song per group or songwriter, my Top Ten would be something like this: <br />1. Dylan, Like a Rolling Stone (and dozens of others); 2. Stones, Satisfaction (I actually prefer several other Stones songs, like Jumpin Jack Flash and Get Off My Cloud, but Satisfaction is the most historically important); 3. Rascals, Good Lovin (a personal love); 4. Velvet Underground, Heroin; 5. Smokey Robinson, Tracks of My Tears; 6. J. Airplane, Somebody to Love; 7. Beach Boys, Good Vibrations or California Girls 8. Redding, Midnight Hour; 9. Youngbloods, Get Together; 10. tie: Simon & Garfunkel, Bridge Over Troubled Water; Who, My Generation; Mitchell, A Free Man in Paris or Big Yellow Taxi; Morrison, Domino or Tupelo Honey; Beatles, Let It Be/A Day in the Life/Something; Cohen, Suzanne or Bird on a Wire; Temptations, My Girl; Buffalo Springfield, For What It's Worth; Byrds, Eight Miles High; Greenwich, Da Doo Ron Ron or Be My Baby; Nyro, Save the Country or Sweet Blindness; Zombies, She's Not There; Kinks, You Really Got Me; hundreds of others.<br /><br />But actually, the best decade for songs is the Thirties.Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-5481964365932450332009-12-16T11:18:15.086-05:002009-12-16T11:18:15.086-05:00Even if you limited the '60s to just the Beatl...<i>Even if you limited the '60s to just the Beatles and Beach Boys and compared that with everything from this decade, the '60s would win.</i><br /><br />Actually, I was thinking this asymmetrical restriction would give an advantage to the '00s, but it would really give an advantage to the '60s. What I was ignoring is that my '00s list has a rule of one-song-per-artist (with a few exceptions). If you edited down my top 100 list so that every artist appeared just once (resulting in about 90 songs), and compared that with the 90 best songs from the '60s <i>also using a one-song-per artist rule</i>, it's less clear to me that the '60s would win. Probably so, but it'd be a lot closer than if you just took the top 70 Beatles songs + the top 20 Beach Boys songs from the '60s.John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-89295318241633900912009-12-16T10:50:35.466-05:002009-12-16T10:50:35.466-05:00I agree that the best X (100 or 200) songs of the ...I agree that the best X (100 or 200) songs of the '60s are better than the best X songs of this decade. Even if you limited the '60s to just the Beatles and Beach Boys and compared that with everything from this decade, the '60s would win.<br /><br />There was no genius or band of geniuses who dominated this decade the way the Beatles did in the '60s or the way Stevie Wonder did in the '70s. But I do think that if we're not taking originality/influence into account, this decade overall has been the second best (next to the '60s) since the birth of rock.John Althouse Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11703450281424023177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4464222071440015933.post-19466832424872312022009-12-16T10:39:47.222-05:002009-12-16T10:39:47.222-05:00Estimable as these songs are, shall we refrain fro...Estimable as these songs are, shall we refrain from pointing out that a list of the 200 best songs of the 1960s would simply blow them away?<br /><br />Except for "Fidelity," of course. And "Chicago" and "The District Sleeps Alone Tonight" and some others.Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.com