Joshua Knobe and Jesse Bering mull over our self-contradictions:
This is at least tangentially related to my post on the afterlife. I don't know if that post contains the answer. Do we really just care about the people who are still alive?
Sunday, May 17, 2009
Why do non-religious people care about their dead loved family members?
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9 comments:
Why do non-religious people care about their dead loved family members?
For the same reason you care about someone when they leave the room. Even some animals care about dead family members. Religion has nothing to do with it.
But in fact, there is very little chance -- I would say no more than 1% -- that these people are in heaven (or hell or purgatory).
I would love to see the math on this.
I prefer to skip all that drama and just approach whatever specific problem in my life happens to be facing me at the time.
You can't control the drama of life, but you can control the drama of religion; and sometimes the lessons you learn in religion even help you control the drama of life.
I would love to see the math on this.
It's not based on math. It's based on the fact that it's a really specific empirical claim backed up by no evidence.
It's not based on math. It's based on the fact that it's a really specific empirical claim backed up by no evidence.
The Bible, the world, the say so of over a billion people.
Also, I assume you would say the same for statements like: "there are undetectable elves who float down on every leaf that falls".
The Bible, the world, the say so of over a billion people.First of all, "the world" doesn't say anything or believe anything.
By "the Bible," you mean the men who wrote the Bible, who lived about 2,000 years ago and were very ignorant about the world by today's standards. I don't defer to those individuals.
By "over a billion people," you're assuming that the available statistics about how many people are Christian (and, yes, the figures I've seen say around 1.1 billion) actually reflects the number of people who have seriously reflected on and truly believe all of Christianity's claims. That's not the case.
Anyway, all of these people fall into two categories:
(1) Those who are still alive, and thus have never experienced what it's like to die.
(2) Those who have experienced death, but can't tell us about it because they're dead.
Bottom line: no one who makes claims about the afterlife knows what they're talking about. You can say all you want about the Bible and statistics on Christianity, but none of it changes this fact. Christians don't have any more knowledge about the afterlife than I do. I know that I don't know what it's like. Therefore, I know that they don't know either.
I know that I don't know what it's like. Therefore, I know that they don't know either.
I don't know many things, but that doesn't mean I think other people don't know them either. Isn't your statement what a closed-minded person would say?
First of all, "the world" doesn't say anything or believe anything.
My point was that the world, and the other things I mentioned, are evidence.
Remember, you said: It's based on the fact that it's a really specific empirical claim backed up by no evidence.
It's important to remember that religious people often do believe the facts are on their side. At the very least they have a feeling that God and heaven exist. And feelings are evidence.
You were trying to apply math to a non-mathematical subject because you were trying to describe a feeling you had. A feeling which exists even if you are a non-religious person.
I don't know many things, but that doesn't mean I think other people don't know them either.
Oh, I'm not saying that if I don't know something, then other people don't know it. Of course, there are many things known by other people, but not to me. But there must be some reason to think other people know it.
I'm not just talking about whether I happen to know it. I'm talking about how well-positioned others are to know it.
I know that they have no special access to knowledge about the afterlife. This is a key premise in my argument. You're free to overlook it if you prefer not to think about it, but then you can't say you've really addressed my argument.
It's important to remember that religious people often do believe the facts are on their side. At the very least they have a feeling that God and heaven exist.
Just God and heaven? What about that other place, the place that's supposed to be much easier to get into?
You were trying to apply math to a non-mathematical subject because you were trying to describe a feeling you had.
"Math" is a red herring. Neither you nor I thinks this problem can be solved by "math."
Yes, I mentioned a number (percentage), but I wasn't applying mathematical reasoning. When I say the chance that there's an afterlife with heaven and hell is less than 1%, I'm not referring to any actual calculation. I simply mean I don't believe the claims that this is what reality is like. In other words, I feel confident that if you or I have acted wrongly in our lives, we're not going to enter a supernatural world of infinite torture when we die. This doesn't bother me in the least; in fact, it would bother me greatly if I thought there were a hell.
Here's another percentage for you: I'm 100% sure that there are many religious myths that you believe are false even though many people believe them. I don't know which myths those are (I'm betting Zeus and other Greek myths are among them), but there are myths where you're not open to other people's feelings as evidence that the myths are true. I happen to have the same attitude toward Christianity. If you think it's important to be extraordinarily open-minded about Christianity, that's an accident of the time and place you happen to be living in.
But there must be some reason to think other people know it.
People often believe things that are true for the wrong reason, but what they believe is still true. A lie can lead to truth, so can a mistake or coincidence.
...I wasn't applying mathematical reasoning.
no more than 1%
less than 1%
Please stop trying, it's confusing!
I use percentages to try to zero in on what I mean. I'm sorry if you don't like this style, but it has nothing to do with "math."
People often believe things that are true for the wrong reason, but what they believe is still true. A lie can lead to truth, so can a mistake or coincidence.
I agree. But if those things are actually true, it's because something else supports them. In the case of heaven and hell, nothing does.
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